Episode 65: Expand The Circle And Enlightened Leadership With Matt Poepsel
About Matt Poepsel
Matt Poepsel, PhD, is the author of Expand the Circle: Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work and host of the Lead the People podcast. He serves as Vice President & Godfather of Talent Optimization at The Predictive Index. He holds a PhD in Psychology, an MBA, and a Harvard Business School Certificate of Management Excellence. Matt has more than 25 years of leadership experience as a software executive and consultant. He’s also a US Marine, an Ironman triathlon finisher, and a student of Buddhist philosophy.
So much has changed in our relationship with work and yet, our leadership remains the same. This is what Matt Poepsel, PhD, has been puzzling amidst the new world of work, coming to the conclusion that it is time for the next era of leadership. In this episode, he joins Sara Murray to share with us the insights he has gathered and compiled in his book, Expand the Circle: Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work. Inspired by the Eastern meditation practice of expanding one’s circle of compassion, Matt puts forward the need for enlightened leadership in organizations. He takes us deep into the importance of humanistic approaches as opposed to traditional command and control, going from within ourselves and then out to other people, the community, and the universe. Don’t miss out on this fresh take on leadership, one that we need now more than ever.
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Expand The Circle And Enlightened Leadership With Matt Poepsel
Matt Poepsel is the Author of Expand the Circle: Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work and the host of the Lead the People Show. He serves as the Vice President and Godfather of talent optimization at The Predictive Index. He holds a PhD in Psychology, an MBA, and a Harvard Business School Certificate of Management Excellence.
Matt has many years of leadership experience as a software executive and consultant. He is also a US Marine, an IronMan triathlon finisher, and a student of Buddhist philosophy. I finished Matt's book, Expand the Circle. I have had a couple of opportunities to interact with him this past year. I am so excited to share his message with this audience. Matt, welcome to the show.
Sara, I can't thank you enough for having me on the show.
I can't wait. First we have to talk about your title, the Godfather of Talent Optimization. Can you expand on that please?
I like to say that talent optimization is an offer you can't refuse. It's one of those things that I've never seen anything else in organizations that you could invest in and see a 10X return instantly on something like making the people part better. Talent optimization was a new discipline that we created in 2018 and I thought, “What's going to take to bring some attention to how powerful it is?” I had some fun.
I thought it would last for about five minutes talking about being the Godfather. I was thinking about James Brown: The Godfather of Soul. It's stuck and it's been with me ever since and people love it. I said, “I'm happy to be the Godfather.” There you go.
We have the godfather on the show and that is at the Predictive Index. Can you share a little bit about that company as well?
Predictive Index has been around for a long time. since 1955 and probably best known for its behavioral assessment, which is a very brief assessment you take to learn all about your motivating needs and drives at work and these types of things. It's such a simple assessment, very quick but powerful. I took it for the first time in 2007, got trained in how to use it and joined the company fully in 2013. I built products for them for a long time and ran all the software in the workshops. Now, just try to spread the message about talent optimization and talk about how some of our largest, most complex customers can take advantage of doing better people practices at work.
Is that the origin story of your book and the show too? Give us a little bit of the background on the book and I have a bunch of questions specific to the book.
The book is just a continuation of my own leadership journey. As you mentioned in the introduction, I started off with military service and was very proud to have served, very happy to go in and very happy to get out as it turned out. What the indelible mark left on me was that no matter what situation I was in, I was expected to act as a leader. That gave me an advantage.
I thought that's how all adults live their life, but it turns out that that's probably more of a military thing and other types of situations like that. When I got done with that, I decided to make a shift to civilian life and I knew I wanted to go back to school. I got my MBA, learned all about business and leadership and took on a very different take, if you will, where it was much more technical in the sense of studying strategy and operations.
The people part of leadership didn't get nearly as much coverage as it did when I was in the service, ironically. We don't think about military branches as being good at the people part but in their own special loving way, they are. Fast forward to the predictive index and the work I do with other organizations that are trying to develop their leaders. That led me to the precipice of the problems I would experience that led me to write the book.
Thank you for your service. My grandpa was a Marine, too, and he's a big part of our family. I would call him a leader, too, but in different ways. Not in the traditional sense. He would always say, “Sara, you're so ambitious. I never wanted to lead people. I didn't want to take on that much responsibility.” When I read your book, I see a lot of his examples on how he was a leader in his communities, probation officer. He had that same piece and I've worked with a lot of veterans too.
I see the care for the people. I also see the chain of command style leadership, too. I didn't get that impression at all in your book. It was much more of a new style of leadership. Maybe let's dive right into what enlightened leadership mean? How did you come up with it? What were the gaps? Can we start there?
What led me to think about the book at all was the challenges I experienced in my own leadership journey. I had received a series of promotions. I was contributing at work. I enjoyed the company that I worked for and everything like this. During the pandemic, many of us, our value systems got challenged and our relationship with work changed. I found myself in a strange place where I was not 100% happy and unclear about what my future path and my purpose was.
Again, a lot of us experienced that and continued to this day for many of us. For me, I was trying to figure out, “I've got to make some changes here.” I resumed a long abandoned practice of meditation. Meditation is something I studied philosophically, very interested in, but it had been many years since the last time I had done it.
When I sat down this time and I started to reflect on these Eastern ancient practices about mindfulness, awareness, presence and compassion. It commingled with all the experiences I'd had in leadership. It’s something I take very seriously and I'm very proud of being able to help other leaders along their journey. Something happened where I found that there was this artificial disconnect between mindful practice and people-centric practice, versus the technical aspects I mentioned earlier.
They are so common in Western leadership. For me, what happened was I was inspired by this Eastern meditation practice where you expand the circle of compassion starting with yourself then out to other people and to maybe an entire community then out into the universe is the tradition. I thought, “That's exactly how I learned to lead.” I had to learn to lead myself before I could lead even a small group of other people. Much less larger teams and lead at the organizational level then on out into the world.
It became a framework that led me to conduct the research. It’s to figure out what we have learned about leading in this way inspired by newer ideas that turned out to be old in terms of their origin, but there are for a variety of reasons we can talk about more necessary than ever. That was the delightful surprise that I had as I went through this and the way the book has been received. It just lets me know that we need this type of enlightened leadership in our organizations.
We absolutely need enlightened leadership in our organizations.
Now I have like seven different things I want to pull from everything you said because I agree with you in terms of the big shift during the pandemic. I felt that way, too. I quit my job when I started a business. It was one of those things where the same type of thing. I got into some of the more mindfulness practices.
I want to live in a world where we can all operate as our authentic selves but create together. Authenticity doesn't mean flying your freak flag. You could still be professional, assertive, and get stuff done, but you can do it in a way that's true to yourself. You talk about authentic leadership as the tier before enlightened leadership. Can you talk a little bit about the differences there?
A lot of people don't necessarily think about it as often as we might like but leadership, leadership study and theory has been around for a long time. As long as humans have done meaningful work, we've had different approaches to leadership. When we think about the history of moving from an authoritarian style and you mentioned the command and control of traditionally military or very large Fortune 500 style companies tend to be more hierarchical.
That's a style that works well in certain ways, or at least in a certain time. Later on, we started to see more humanistic approaches or things like servant leadership or authentic leadership, but even those practices were created in the late ‘90s. When you think about how much has changed in our work and in ourselves, you and I were talking about the same experience we had during the pandemic. Leadership itself hasn't changed that much.
That's where I felt like authentic leadership, which is so important, spent a lot of time studying at Harvard Business School. I love it but authentic leadership still focuses very much on the me part of the equation, which is necessary to do that. Beyond a certain amount, all of a sudden, that's not the enlightened approach we need where we shift our attention to the mission and to others and their welfare or their benefit. Those things need to be coming through so much more than the ego drive and the self-centrism that, unfortunately, continues to characterize Western leadership.
I would say that's a big note that I had. Your book was extremely well researched. I learned so much from other authors and other leaders in this space but I liked your interpretation or translation of what that research means for contemporary online leadership. I thought that was very clever.
Thank you. It's one of my favorite things about myself is that I enjoy reading dry, thick, and boring crap, but I know that not everyone does. I like to get to the point, translate it, punch it up a little, and tell some stories and anecdotes and create something that is well researched and grounded because that's something important to do, but isn't a slog. I tried to make it a little more accessible.
You learned so much too. I was thinking that I learned that the Hopi Tribe looks at the Grand Canyon as the gateway to the afterlife. Whales are my favorite animal. You had a couple of whale antidotes in there and a couple of whale trivia. I enjoyed it. It was a very compelling read, and I liked how you structured it into the Expanded the Circle, what is the frame and how do you deploy it in your role. Let's talk a little bit about applications. If people are reading, what are some of the ways that they can start maybe that self-awareness and start to tap into what an enlightened leader looks like?
Self-awareness is the point that I began. When you think about the first layer, if you will, about leading yourself. That can be the trickiest and that's where a lot of us get stuck. It's because self-awareness can be so hard to come by. I cite some research from Tasha Eurich in the book. She had conducted a study and found that 95% of us believed that we're self-aware. When tested empirically, only 10% to 15% of us are accurately self-aware. That's a big difference. In her work, knowing that self-awareness is a matter of self-reflection and being a to what you're seeing and experiencing, but also relying on other people's input as well.
We're not talking about just 360 feedback studies, but more than that. Awareness is a great place to start. There are assessments like the Predictive Index like many others that are out there that can help us to fast forward that process in part. I include, for example, a value survey inside the book that helps us understand things like, “Why do I get out of bed in the morning?”
What's important about a value survey is not even what is my chief value, but how am I expressing it in my current work? That's where I find that a lot of us fall off. Either we don't know what the value is or we can't say with certainty, “Here's what I've done specifically to exercise my value of adventure or creativity or service.” That's when people start to get in trouble.
I feel like now that I've started my business, I'm forced to be a little bit more introspective than I ever have been before. I always understood the idea of values, but I never applied it. When I started the business, I had a branding girl and she made me do my top five values for my business. I was like, “Oh, okay.” I took a long time. I sat with it and I came up with my five. I've done episodes about it. It's in my workshop because now that I understand what they are. It's almost like a Northstar guidance system.
It's like, “I don't want to do that because it's out of alignment with my core values.” I appreciate that you included that. I did all the exercises in the book, too, and these assessments. You have a lot of content in here to help you structure how to go look inside. I am imagining some people might be squirming a little bit listening to that and even thinking about having to hold up the mirror and look at it themselves.
It is, but it's so important that we do that. You're not going to like everything you see and that's why the second aspect or element after awareness is about acceptance. That's something I had to learn as a leader. I was not going to be a rockstar at everything and that's okay. Not only is it natural. It's okay. It was so liberating for me realizing that I was never going to be excellent at certain things. I'd be better off surrounding myself with other people who were great at those things because they love them.
The reality is like detailed planning work. There were parts of the book writing process about being very specific down to copywriting. I don't love those things. Why should I punish myself for not being great at something I don't love? It took me a long time to give myself permission to embrace my “imperfections” because they're not imperfections. That's part of the leadership journey.
If we're not willing to do the hard work on ourselves, then we shouldn't expect to be able to lead others. Leadership is a privilege. While we all have the capability to be leaders because it's the most human thing we can do, in my opinion. It doesn't mean that we should always be in positions where we're expected to manage other people if we're not prepared to dedicate ourselves to what it takes to have people in our care.
I appreciate it you saying it that way. What is something that people can do if they find an area, I call it zone of genius. It's not your zone of genius or if it's a skill or a strength that you need that you don't have to be an impactful leader. What can people do to start working on those opportunities?
I've come to think about this a little bit differently in the sense that in the early part of one's career, I do think you need to to be reasonably good at lots of things. If you're rubbish at project management, you're going to have to get reasonably good at project management if you're going to be an effective leader. You don't have to be the best at it. You don't have to be a completely incredible person at it but you have to be passable. You have to know it and respect it well enough.
The very first part of one's career, I encourage people to get incredibly well-rounded. Study the things that are a weakness for you, practice them in safe ways, and commit yourself to becoming reasonably good at lots of things. I was very fortunate in my career to have exposure to sales, marketing, product and strategic partnerships. I was never going to be the best at any of those things but it made me so much more useful down the road when I could connect dots in very powerful ways.
In the middle of your career, you start to realize that you're not going to be great at everything. Now you need to lean into your strength. You need to hone and develop more. If you're naturally gifted at persuasion, do that. Do lots of that. You've already gotten reasonably good at everything else. You're not going to be exceptional at everything. Find the thing that you are naturally wired for and that you love. Lean into that and later on, you start to abandon all of those things and look deeper into bringing even more of your humanity, if you will, into the leadership moment. That's the third phase.
I like that. We're leading ourselves first. What happens next?
We need to be able to lead another person. This could be a direct report but it could also be a peer. It could be your boss. It could be whoever you work for, just one other person. When you think about the human connection between any two people doing meaningful work together. I start to talk about things about empathy. What about altruistic behavior? These are the types of very human connections that we need to make with one another. That's where sometimes we start to see some of the problems set in because now you have competing goals and competing styles. Lots of things can happen when two people start to work together. That's why we need guidance.
I appreciate that you said it's leading anyone because when people hear the term leadership, they immediately default to, “I manage people. I am a manager of people.” Leadership and management are different things. You can be a leader as an individual contributor. That opportunity isn't discussed that way. much. I appreciate you saying that. Can we talk a little bit about that if you don't have direct reports? How can you still show up as a leader?
I do not equate having direct reports or the size of your organization or anything like that with leadership. Leadership to me is about how you can effectively encourage others to give their energy towards some collective goal. That doesn't mean that you're in charge all the time. You can use your powers of perspective and your intention. There's lots of different ways to do that. If we were to adopt that type of a definition of leadership, we realize that it's earned.
It's something that has the benevolence of others in its definition, as well as a mission. It has an intention behind it. If that's the case, we can take away some of this. Sometimes leadership has a stigma. People are like, “I'm not a leader. Leader.” You're self-limiting because of that word, we've charged it so much. That if you're not Elon Musk or if you're not commanding some giant organization that you're not a leader. Those are some of the weakest leaders you'll find in many organizations because there's so much infrastructure around them.
Community leaders are some of the most skilled people that you'll find. We need to recognize that there is no generally accepted definition of leadership. We have to define it for ourselves, but never let someone tell you that you're not a leader. You have that opportunity. The change has to take place between your ears first and the way you comfort yourself and guide us all toward your mission. I'd love to see that.
If you're okay with that, I want to talk about confidence a little bit too, because that is very much like a core theme that I got through each layer of the circle expanding. Self-leadership is important, but the confidence piece is important too. What would you say if somebody's reading and there may be an insecure leader or a new leader or they want to step more into their leadership era, if you will? What can people do to start that confidence piece?
Recognizing your own blockers and everything that we experience takes place within our mind. If we're not going to train the mind, then we're going to have to prepare for a lot of suffering along the way. We have to recognize that a story for somebody who's confident, meaning the story they tell themselves or the story that someone who's lacking confidence. They're both just stories. We write our own stories.
When we take away our ability to be confident, for example. That's just that we've started to tell ourselves a story that's scary in some way or produces anxiety. Maybe we feel incomplete but in reality, those things turn out not to be true. There's a difference between somebody who's overconfident because they're putting themselves in a position where they have to demonstrate skills they don't have yet, versus more of a core confidence I'm talking about people who are saying, “I don't have confidence at all. I don't even speak up in meetings because I'm not confident.”
Giving yourself permission to embrace your own greatness, you have a human capability. You have contributions you can make. I would say start small. That would be part of my advice and recognize that competence begets competence. When you start to demonstrate that you're good at something, then it creates this loop with confidence.
Giving yourself more credit for the things that you can do well, I see a lot of people not giving themselves credit for things that they are naturally good at then say, “I'm not confident in this other thing. I don't like public speaking.” “You're great at other things.” “Those things, those come easy to me.” How can you give yourself minus points when it comes to things that you're good at but then beat yourself up over other things? It's where the attention goes is a big part of where confidence can come from.
When you had a quote that I liked, and I wrote it down, “Self-confidence is a personal judgment and can only be determined by the individual. Nobody can make you or anybody else more or less self-confident.” This means that when it comes to confidence, you're holding serve because I think people, myself included, look for others to validate our worth or how good we are.
When I've come to think about it more, what I realize that showed up time and again in this research, and I didn't appreciate this at first, is fear. Fear destroys everything good in relationships and organizations. When we say that we're lacking confidence, it's because we're afraid of something. We're afraid of not being complete. We're afraid of being ostracized or excluded in some way.
The reality is that the opposite of fear, and it's similar to confidence, is not courage. It's love, connection, and unity. A lot of times, because we're afraid of not being good at something that we're going to be ostracized for it. That's what creates this feeling of isolation. In this world of work of ours, where there's more hybrid, isolation, loneliness, and lack of belonging than ever. We have to be vigilant about those things. I would say how we get over the fear is to think more about connection and more about unity and if you're comfortable with it, love.
The reality is that the opposite of fear is not courage. It's love. It's connection. It's unity.
I appreciate that and that you're putting it out there in that way too because when you break it down, it's straightforward. It's like we need confident people in our organizations, but confidence starts with the stories you're telling ourselves, which starts with your thoughts, which is where the enlightened piece comes from, connecting with yourself and meditating. All of those things are tools. I like that you're a Marine, too, and you're a man of academia.
You have these pillars that are traditionally not in the meditation and falls in the woo-woo category a lot of times. It has changed my life too in so many ways and the way that I'm able to handle stress, talk to myself, and show up courageously instead from fear. Let’s talk a little bit about meditation if you're open to it. This wasn't on our list, but what's your practice? How have you weaved it into your life?
A couple of years ago, I started having more of a formal meditation practice. I will say, it's something that I continue to evolve. If I feel like I need to change it up, I just change it up. There are certain either belief systems or religions or anything else that are very strict about these things. I'm not. I do whatever I feel like I need. I do have a regimen in the sense that I try to get up as early as I can. Sometimes 4:15 or 4:30. I like to sit down and I like to read for a bit and pour myself a nice coffee. That's always first but then I start reading.
I like to get inspired by what it is I read. In my case, I do study Buddhist philosophy and text. I’m trying to look for a different angle on some timeless topics. I'll sit and reflect on it for a little bit. I'll sit down for a proper meditation session. In that tradition, it's been taught that you need to study, you need to think, and to meditate. Those are three very different things but they're all related. I believe that's true.
Sometimes though, when I was getting started, I used the Headspace app. I later used Insight Timer. They have so many great guided meditations and just the ability to get calm and understand different ways of trying to hack into your thought patterns. It doesn't matter what tradition you come from, whether you come from a religious perspective or a philosophical perspective or any of the contemplative perspectives, or even just health and wellness. It doesn't matter.
The reality is that mindfulness is good for you. In this current environment we're in, you need it more than ever. If all you have is noise in your head all day long from the time you wake up until the time you sleep and all you do is practice escapism in the evening because you're too tired to do anything else. It doesn't go well.
Mindfulness is good for you. In this current environment we're in, you need it more than ever.
Everything gets better if we find mindfulness, which for people like you and maybe if it's meditation. For somebody else, it could be playing piano or prayer or walk in nature. It doesn't matter, but something that allows you to connect with something bigger than yourself is supremely important. Don't let anybody tell you're doing it wrong. There is no wrong. It's just a matter of can you get still? Can you connect? Can you recharge in those ways? If your answer is yes, however you choose to do it, then I'm all for it.
I call my meditation practice RPM, and it says for rise, pee, and meditate. I go to the bathroom, back in my bed, and I use an app. I set an alarm for twenty minutes. It's like you wake up 30 minutes early and sometimes you fall back to sleep. One thing I have noticed, it's almost like if you take time to make space, things can come in. I've had business names come into my brain. It's almost like that blend between your conscious and your subconscious, but that's where ideas can come in.
A lot of times, I try to get imagery about water because for whatever reason, I consider and I equate mind with water. If you think about the surface of the ocean, it can be choppy. Down beneath, it's very still and calm down there. You have to descend if you will. I always think about meditation as helping me calm the top of the water so that it matches what's down below a little bit better.
You're right, if you have this choppy surface of your mind, it's hard to be creative, innovative, excited and attentive to the needs of people around you or to your prospects because your mind is racing and thinking, “If I don't get this deal, then I'm not going to make my number. I'm never going to get promoted.” You're like, “You're about everything right now except your natural strength and stillness, the best interest of your prospect.”
The success is not going to happen for you versus before the call, “Can we get calm for a second? Let's take a couple of breaths.” The breath has always been timeless. It's always there. It's the thing you can always use as an anchor or support for your meditation. It's easy, take three breaths. Calm yourself down. Now, all of a sudden, shift your mindset.
Maybe even if you're in division exercises, imagine how your prospect might engage with your product or service in a way that benefits them. Get yourself out of the damn equation as best you can. Now, take that call and you see how many times it works out better for everybody involved when you get yourself out of the equation in that way. If you're getting that habit, that's going to make a big difference.
It makes you so much more present and if you're present, then you can be a better listener, which means you can listen for opportunities with you could solve your stuff or solve the problem but I agree. I learned a trick about water and mindfulness too that you'd enjoy. Let's say you're having anxiety or you're stressed or anxious about a call. Either take a sip of water and pay attention to it in your mouth. Is it hot or cold or room temperature? Feel that going down your throat or you could go wash your hands. Be mindful of the water touching your hands. Water is like a proven calming effect. I like your version of calming the surface and the choppy waters up top.
Anything that takes your attention and you can put it on a support like that, I like the idea of how the water feels in your mouth. Is it cool? Is it hot? How does it feel to touch? It takes your mind away from all that other stuff competing. You got to find that stillness in order to achieve the highest performance. I was watching one of the football games, the quarterback before the game. I’m sitting at the goal post meditating.
It's getting to more places. Going back to your point about the Marine Corps, practicing now, meditation in places, and trying to look at stress response. Scholarly, I have kids that are in PE class doing yoga and mindfulness because kids are stressed. A lot of the stigma associated with some of these traditions is falling away, thankfully, and not a moment too soon. I feel like the highest performing people are going to be great at mindfulness and visualization without fail.
I agree. I was always in a sales role and I would announce, “I'm going to go close this client.” It was almost like an external accountability, but part of it was the visualization. It's like, “I know I'm going to do it. I'm going to announce it to my leader so that I have a little skin in the game,” then I'd go do it. Once in a while, I would fall off all of my face but that was never remembered. It was always like, “She's going out and doing stuff.” A lot of it came from confidence and understanding at least I will try. Having that mindfulness practice gives you more courage to try.
You mentioned the research foundation behind the book. When you study your performance like psychology, what they find is when you set goals as an example or you do that type of visualization. It unlocks what they call task strategies. A part of your mind you don't always access is creating ways to be successful.
There's a level of attention that's happening below the normal consciousness when we allow ourselves to do things like be truly mindful and connected to do visualization exercises to set goals. Eventually, you get to these things that we know work. They've just been proven to work. We just have to be willing to take that enlightened mindset, cast off those outdated beliefs about what's good or macho or golly knows what it was.
I was going to do like chest, Tarzan puffing it out. Let me ask you this question because when I was reading the book, I've worked for a lot of different leaders, either as my direct bosses or dotted line bosses or maybe I'm managing a rep agency, so I'm seeing their leadership style. I've been fortunate enough to have a lot of exposure to different types of leaders.
I was reading it like there were some people who are like, “I wish I could just mail you this book. You need to read this,” but you can't do that. One of the things that I would ask you is let's say you are working for someone who is not an enlightened leader. What strategies or suggestions or best practices would you have for someone who's working in a role where they don't have that type of leader?
The first thing I have to recognize is that I still have an obligation or responsibility to lead. That might mean thinking about the collateral damage that this unenlightened leader is causing. I might go out of my way to check in with my teammates who are also working for the same person. Their level of suffering is increasing because of this inelegant leadership style that they're also a part of.
I'm suffering because of this unenlightened approach, but guess what? Also the people around me. Leadership in that moment might be checking in with people more frequently than I would. Creating space for them to either maybe not vent, but to at least find some relief or to give them their constructive feedback they need to get better instead of whatever they may be receiving otherwise.
It's hard to change people and it's hard to also recognize when other people are suffering. If you're working with a leader who's taken an unenlightened approach, you don't know what they've been through up to that point. You don't know what they're going through now. You don't know if they've had a diagnosis or what's going on in their family. It's very easy for us to look at the surface level and be like, “This person's a jerk.” You'd be shocked at what we don't know.
Now, that's not an excuse. We're not trying to excuse a leader's poor behavior, but this is where compassion sets in. When we start to understand that everyone around us, including those that are acting with this boorish behavior, deserve our compassion. It doesn't mean we have to put up with stuff. There's always a time when we need to stand up for ourselves but I'm talking about the fact that it doesn't absolve us of our necessity to always lead. Trying to figure it out, even in the face of a manager or supervisor who's not taking an enlightened approach doesn't mean that we shouldn't.
That was very beautifully said because it forces us to get out of like, “You're upset that you don't have an enlightened leader, but it's almost you have to practice what you preach and step out of yourself and that me mentality.
One thing I like to do mentally and maybe it's just a trick or a hack but I like to say to myself, “I have this in my life because I need this in my life.” What is the lesson here? What is this person's presence in my life who's making things not so comfortable for me? It's still an opportunity for me to either practice or how I don't want to behave given the opportunity. There's something there that can be worked with. All problems are workable at the end of the day. Given an opportunity to foster a stronger relationship with my peers. That's an opportunity that comes from us collectively working for somebody who's not an enlightened leader.
I like that a lot. The couple of times where I've been disappointed in something, I'm a big gratitude journaler. I'll be like, “What can I find in this situation that I'm grateful for?” That has helped me work on my own mindset and not be that victim mentality that we all fall into.
You don't want that and there's always something to be done. I even say in the book, “If I'm breathing, I'm leading.” There's always an opportunity and it may look differently. Even myself, I get tired. I don't always show up as the leader I want to be. I'm human, but the reality is that I always have the opportunity to share that and be vulnerable.
Can I go to my team and say, “Team, I'm a little tired. I had some stuff going on at home. I don't want to talk about it, but I want you to know I'm not 100% today.” In the old days, I would have thought, “That's showing weakness. They're not going to respect you.” Now, what we find is that we all need to be human with one another.
That type of vulnerability raises psychological safety and trust, brings people closer to you because we want humans' leaders. We don't want robot leaders. We just have to rethink everything. The good news is that it's not for it at all. It's settling into our human approach. That's where the good stuff is. There's a lot of reasons why we don't do that, but that's the Northstar that won't steer you wrong.
We all need to be human with one another. That type of vulnerability raises psychological safety and trust, which brings people closer to you.
I like that a lot. It's almost like you have your work, Sara, then your real Sara. We need to start merging those two together because we spend most of our waking hours at work. We want to work with people we like and be ourselves when we do it.
It's exhausting trying to hold up all these different me's that I have to be. The more I allow things to collapse and just integrate into one whole, everything got easier. I had that much more energy to donate or give to the welfare of those around me and the pursuit of the mission. Everything just gets a lot easier but when you're like, “I have to be this way at work and I have to be somebody different at home or In this situation.” It's exhausting trying to put up and hold back those parts. I don't want anybody to see any of my faults. We've all got faults. Good luck with that. That takes so much energy away from what we could be getting from you.
That's great. What I liked about how you structured the book too is the beginning part is all about the framework. You have a structured self leadership, one other person lead within your organization, community and the world world. You can feel it expanding and I like the structure of each value set within those different categories. Part two of the book is you talked a lot about implementation and you have a lot of exercises in the back of the book. I'm hoping you could share like 1 or 2 of your favorites or what you think are the most impactful for any of our readers.
One of my favorites came pretty early on in the form of acceptance. We don't realize how much exposure we get to the human underbelly of leadership. It's not something we like to talk about in our business schools, but you're not going to get away from it if you're going to be an effective leader. You've got to be human, which means that you're going to have to practice some level of self-acceptance.
If you're going to be an effective leader, you've got to be human, which means that you're going to have to practice some level of self-acceptance.
There was an exercise I included called who, what, and when. It was basically what are the triggers? Who's somebody that every time you see them, there's some amount of their success that makes you feel, “You're not the number one rep. There are always a number one rep.” Who is the person that triggers this feeling of a pity party or frustration with yourself? What's something about yourself? I'm not very detail oriented.
I lose track of the details and sometimes, I don't want to deal because of that or when? What are those situations? When they announce the winners of President's Club and I'm not in it, then I feel less. Even though I just got started. It’s my first year on the job here at this company. I'm still learning the product, but I'm kicking myself. Whatever it is. I love acceptance because it creates this depth to our leadership. That's an example from leading yourself.
I found my page. I was doing the exercises in the book.
You didn't write about your A plus.
It’s a private book, though. I can't blow it to anyone now. Big hello raw but I liked that. I was like, “How would you prefer to view their achievement?” In your example of who, think of a person whose accomplishments, recognition, or status have caused you to discount your own. How would you prefer to view their achievements? I said, “I want to view that as inspiring and motivational like proof of what's possible.” It was such an easy way to reframe that.
It's beautiful. A lot of times we subconsciously don't even realize that we've been triggered. All of a sudden, we come back from a meeting where that person was in it and we're in a grumpy mood. We don't understand why. That's where mindfulness comes in and this is where the intentionality that you demonstrated by completing the exercise. Even if it only took 5 or 10 minutes. The reality is, there's little things we can do that make this huge difference over time.
I'm going to say this episode is one, folks. Way to go. We're already doing it. Tell me another exercise.
Another one shows up in the very next chapter, about empathy. There was one and it was called through their eyes. What I ask you to do is to find or think about people you work with. Who's somebody who seems to be having a great experience at work and somebody who's having a not so great experience? In empathy and the nature of the prompting questions I give, which is like, what might be happening that's leading them to have this positive or this less than positive experience? How might you share your observations with them?
This practice of trying, you don't have to guess 100% right, but being willing to project what somebody else might be experiencing is a powerful skill that people want from us. As humans, we're naturally wired to be empathetic but we can get so caught up in the heat of winning the deal or driving the number. Sometimes, we forget that other people may not be having the same experience as us. Raising that attentiveness can be important.
A great example is sometimes when a sales rep joins a call and they're thinking about, “We're almost done with this deal. I'm ready to ask for the order.” Your prospect shows up and they're a little bit uncharacteristically quiet. Do you press for the deal? That's the stage of the sales process you're in, or do you say, “I hope you don't mind me asking, but is everything okay? You seem a little low-key compared to our historic interactions?” That's being human at that moment.
You and I when we first met, we talked about this but I feel very strongly that if you can build the relationship first, the sales come very organic. The relationship part is everything we're talking about. It's empathy, compassion, and values. It's all of these things that compile into that human connection but it's something that isn't necessarily quantifiable. We don't teach it in the same way. That's why I resonated with your book so much. It gave a lot of structure with research and science but it gave us tools to help massage and exercise those softer skills.
Magic things happen when we put people first. A lot of this stuff sounds very soft, but to your point, the research shows that it produces better performance. I was talking to sales rep and said, “I have one of my former clients. She left her company, went to a new company and bought for me again. Left that company, went to another company and bought for me again.” Why? Relationship. All of a sudden, it's like if I had pressed the deal and I didn't make the personal connection. Maybe they would have bought the product again and again, but no. They thought, "I have a problem. I know who I'm going to call. I'm going to call my friend.”
Somebody went to all these different companies because of layoffs and things were happening, but I had so much business come out of it because of that relationship.
Transactions don't do that. Personal connections do that. Trust does that. There you go. Trust is a very human thing that can happen in a sales process. process, but how often does it? This is very true in managerial context, we get so focused sometimes on the metric or the number. We forget to do the human part. Inevitably, it shows up and bites us both in the human part later on with their engagement, their willingness to stay, and all the things we cite in the book. As well as in the performance because people just aren't as willing to fight for you if they don't feel connected to you.
People just aren't as willing to fight for you if they don't feel connected to you.
Sometimes it almost defaults to the only way to stay is to care less in some ways. That's not the type of leadership or the type of work environments anyone wants to stay in that whole concept of quiet quitting. I get why people do that.
Back to the top, it's a violation of what I call talent optimization. We are looking for the highest possible levels of performance, engagement, and well-being. Not one of those or two of those. We need all three of those. The reality is if somebody's not doing well in their job, you've either set them up to fail or you're not giving them the resources and the support they need. If they're not engaged, that's to your point about saying, “The only way I could stay is if I detached from the environment because it was a toxic environment.” That's not good.
The well-being now, we're seeing the lowest levels of mental well-being in the workplace that we've ever seen. It's because this post-pandemic life of ours takes a toll on us. It's up to the leaders to lead in a way that produces all three of those outcomes. It's not going to happen on its own and with the old approaches we used to take. We have to take an enlightened approach if we want those three outcomes.
I love that. It’s performance, engagement, and well-being. All three legs of the stool and we want that for every individual on every team in the entire doggone organization. If any one of us, remember, we're more connected than we may seem. Those themes came through the book,. We're not even talking about metaphysical ways. It's just true. We're more connected than we think. If any one of us, any one of our teams is not meeting those criteria because they have a toxic leader, then we're not an optimal organization, period.
The way that we can do this is to start by reading Expand the Circle or listen to it on audiobooks. Do you have a final big takeaway you want to leave us with specific from the book or enlightened leadership in general?
One of my favorite things in the back of the book talks about the formula for enlightened leadership. What we recognize is that if we can get and drive up the highest possible levels of mindfulness, compassion and wisdom and drive down to the greatest degree possible that’s focus on self, especially here in the West. It's just driven into us. That's the equation.
Things get so much better when we start to turn down the volume on me TV and start to drive up our willingness to be in the moment, to have compassion for others, and to have a level of wisdom about how things are. Not how they seem to be. That is the biggest way that we can know to start to convert this into action and drive up the enlightened capacity in ourselves but it will spill over into those around us and eventually to the whole organization for sure.
That's so wonderful. I had a call with somebody and I was chatting about my 2024 business goals. This is an exercise you have to keep practicing. That's why we call it practice, but she said, “Instead of having a mind goal,” which is what I need to, because I've always been in sales. “Maybe say, like, I'm going to help twelve teams this year. I'm going to help twelve companies this year.” That's a constant shift. It's like we're adding value. Turning down me TV takes practice even when you're a mindful person.
You'll slip back and it'll happen or somebody will pop off in a meeting and all of a sudden, you're brought back to the ego centricity. The quicker you can be aware of it and short-circuit that thing and realize. This is the thing about leadership, the more you're able to accomplish the mission and the welfare of others in the pursuit of that mission. You're going to be fine. You will be regarded as a very powerful and capable leader. All the money and all the accolades will follow suit.
If you start to be destroyed by the self-bit and it undermines your ability to produce the result of the mission or to take care of people on the way to getting that result. It's going to show up everywhere, in your pocketbook, your relationships, and your job prospects. It's simple but not easy. Simple but not easy. It's so tempting for us to experience that fear and go right back to Mimi and Ego and how am I going to be okay in all this? You've got to fight that. That's where the mind training comes in. Again, turn up the volume on the mission and on the welfare of others helping you achieve that mission. You're going to be fine.
I want to be like, “Mic drop.” I want to leave us with one thing because we haven't talked about this yet. One thing that I have noticed when I work on enlightened leader approach is that you almost find other like-minded people. I want to share a funny story with this audience because when Matt and I first met, he heard me as a guest on a show and the readers of this show know I like icebreakers.
One of my favorites is what is the best bird? Matt reached out on LinkedIn, we were chatting and he started the meeting by saying, “I got to start this call up by saying, the Emu is the best bird.” Matt, when you said that to me, I was like, “I've made it. I can quit the business now. Mission accomplished. I did it.”
That's the authentic signature thing. I love it. Tell you what, the one thing I'll give myself a slight bit of credit for. When you hear somebody on a show like you were on that show. It's like celebrity status because you don't know. I'm like, “I have no idea if Sara's going to reply to me at all.” I felt this kindred spirit thing going on because your perspective you shared on that show had nothing to do with what we're talking about. It resonates with me. As a person, you reached me. I was like, “I'm going to try.” Now, you may never have run back and that's fine too, but you did. Having that connection is only possible when we allow ourselves to feel the connection and act on it.
I am so grateful you reached out because now this episode is a real life manifestation. I feel so much more equipped after reading your book too in terms of having a structure on how to execute because these things, as we already discussed, can be a little bit hard to quantify or wrap our head around. I love the book. I've been recommending it to everyone. How else can people find you, Matt?
MattPoepsel.com is my website and LinkedIn is the best way. I'm active on LinkedIn. I always love to hear from people and would be happy to help anyway I can.
He means that. I appreciate you reaching out to me. I am so happy we're in each other's orbits. I can't wait to continue to expand the circle. Thanks for joining me on the show.
Thank you so much, Sara. I appreciate it.
