Episode 47: How To Get Unstuck With Holly Markham
Holly Markham
Holly Markham is the founder and co-owner of European Home, a design-oriented manufacturer and importer of modern fireplaces based in Massachusetts.
Holly got her business start in the high-tech sector, working for prominent companies including EDS, FTP Software, and IONA Technologies. Her roles in Sales and Marketing gave her important skills and set the stage for her to start her own business.
With a curiosity about building materials and a discerning eye for design, Holly established European Home in 2004 after navigating through various trials and errors. Her primary focus was on modern fireplaces, a niche that was remarkably limited in the North American market at the time.
Today, European Home sells through a retail channel of over 300 dealers across North America. You can find them at prominent hotels, resorts, and restaurants, and of course beautiful homes, they’ve have been featured on The Property Brothers and Love it or List it and now Prospecting on Purpose.
In life and business, you only truly get unstuck when you take that first step. For this episode, we have special guest Holly Markham, the driving force behind European Home, a remarkable company that brings stunning fireplaces and architectural solutions to homeowners and professionals alike. Holly shares her journey from high-tech sales to becoming an entrepreneur and building a brand with over 300 dealers across the United States and Canada. Today, she shares her experiences in sales, marketing, and entrepreneurship, exploring how the skills she honed in high-tech seamlessly translated to her role as a business owner. Throughout the episode, she unpacks advice and strategies in decision-making, breaking down complex tasks, and fostering a mindset of independence. Tune in now and get ready to get unstuck.
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How To Get Unstuck With Holly Markham
Holly Markham is the Founder and Co-owner of European Home, a design-oriented manufacturer and importer of modern fireplaces based in the Boston, Massachusetts area. Holly got her business start in the high-tech sector working for prominent companies, including EDS, FTP software, and IONA Technologies. Her roles in sales and marketing gave her the important skills to set the stage to start her business.
With a curiosity about building materials and a discerning eye for design, Holly established European Home in 2004 after navigating through various trials and errors, which we're going to talk about in this episode. Her primary focus was on modern fireplaces, a niche that was remarkably limited in North America at the time.
European Home sells through a retail channel of over 300 dealers across North America. You can find them at prominent hotels, resorts, restaurants, and beautiful homes. They've been featured on the Property Brothers, Love It or List It, and this show. On a personal note, European Home is a client of mine. I've been working with Holly and her sales team to support their business development efforts. I'm so inspired by Holly's career journey. Every time I speak to any member of the team, I always learn something new. I'm excited for this audience to learn from her.
Holly, welcome to the show.
Thank you, Sara. It's nice to be here.
I want to start our icebreaker right out of the gate. What is the best piece of business advice you've ever received?
I wish I could remember all the advice. There is probably a lot better advice I have gotten but this is what comes to mind with a question like that. It is probably because it resonates with me. I try to do things myself and do take on too much. The most memorable is don't try to do it yourself. Use your team. Lean in. There are so many ways it's been said. That's what I think of when I start saying, “I'm so busy.” I try to look at myself and say, “What am I doing to cause this?” I keep that in mind and then think, “How do I need to get help from others to get the work done?”
Nobody's an island here working alone. I feel that way a lot too. We're going to chat about building businesses. One of the things that I've been telling myself is I'm not running a business alone. That's something that helps me to remind myself. With you, I want to talk about your journey of building European Home and how you've learned certain lessons along the way.
One thing that is inspiring when I speak to you is some of the ways that you run your business and interact with me and other folks that you interact with on the day-to-day. Everyone in their roles almost has to operate as their business unit. I'm excited to learn the takeaways from your journey. I want to start with how you went from high-tech to building European Home in the US. What made you decide to bring the European fireplace style into North America? What is that origin story there?
The origin story was I was working in Europe. I always noticed they had incredible attention to detail. I was in the high-tech sector. I would go to meetings. In the conference room, the water was not in a plastic bottle. It was in a beautiful carafe. There were glasses on the table. There was even a plate of cookies. I always thought it was so lovely.
I remember going to dinner at someone's house and they had those little tea lights and then a silver crate. After they poured the coffee, they set the coffee on top of this silver crate. It wasn't a fancy home. It was a small apartment. I was noticing this lovely attention to detail and style. Styles seemed to matter but they weren't obsessing over it. It felt like it was very natural and a part of how they interacted. I thought that was interesting. It probably planted a seed.
I remember popping into furniture stores and maybe a hardware store or their equivalent of a DIY store. I was noticing the cleaner lines. The sofas didn't have the big arms and those skirts. Everything seemed more modern. What I noticed was these beautiful old buildings that were from the 1700s and 1800s. You'd go in and it was very modern inside. There wasn't this obsession with having to keep things like a museum. It was simply like, “It's a beautiful building but I don't live in the 1800s. I'm not going to furnish it.” It is what you might find in a museum here, that older style or maybe that antique style. There might be a beautiful antique mixed in with some modern pieces. I liked that.
I thought, “I like high-tech. I find it very interesting but it's probably a little more stressful than I'm looking for long-term. If I were to start my business, what do I find interesting?” It was poking around. That led me to go to some trade shows that had more home goods. I found myself always looking at home goods. It was then talking to different vendors. I did have some other products along the way but it was the fireplaces that seemed to strike a chord. I realized even at the time when I was learning that there was a need in the marketplace.
In the United States?
Exactly. They had them in Europe. They were very modern fireplaces. Maybe instead of having logs in them, they might have stones or driftwood. Instead of having louvers, which is grill work that lets the heat out, there was a more subtle way to deal with the heat so that you could finish your wall as a smooth opening around the fireplace. That was different.
One of the people I started to work with over there, his name is Gavin Scott. I brought him to a hearth show here in the US. They were gas fireplaces and he said, “Why do they have those screens?” I said, “It’s because they're trying to make them look like they're wood burning.” It was those little curtain-y screens. He said, “They're not wood burning. They're gas.”
There was a differing concept which I thought was so interesting. It seemed like in Europe at the time, they were saying, “They're not wood so let's have some fun.” Things have changed a lot. This goes back to around 2003. At that time, it was simply like, “If you don't want to burn wood and you want to burn gas, you want the gas to look like the wood.” That's where we were.
I had approached a couple of fireplace companies including Gavin Scott. I said, “Do you sell in the US?” It wasn't just a no. It was this passionate no, “We get so many inquiries from you Americans.” I thought, “When is a lead ever a bad thing coming from a sales background? You always appreciate a lead.” That clicked. I could see it was something they didn't want to deal with. I said I'd be happy to call them and see if they're serious.
It was almost a throwaway to them. That was so nice because they did share leads. I was then able to introduce myself and say, “We don't have a product but we're exploring getting it approved.” At the same time, while I was doing that, I was learning about what would be required. Of all the things I had sold in high tech and then with European Home, I had sold a couple of other products before the fireplaces, the reaction from the people was so interesting. It wasn’t like, “I thought they were pretty. I might be interested.” It was panic. They were like, “I'm building my home. When can I get it? How much?” I don't even remember all the details but it was this sense of, “I need it,” and, “When?”
Let me ask you a couple of questions there. Do you think that they weren't engaging with the United States leads because they didn't have the product at the time? What do you think it was that they were experiencing resistance to engaging with incoming inquiries?
I assumed it was because they knew their products wouldn't meet the building code here. Since you said it, I don't know if they were fully aware of it. There is a style difference. It could have been a little intimidating that we go for it. We’re like, “When?” Two days later, we’re like, “When?” Over there, you ask a question and you get the answer back 1 week or 2 later, and that's fine. They might have been a little taken aback as well but it could have been also the code and the shipping. They were also concerned about the support. They ship it over when the person has some questions.
That's what's interesting, too. Gavin and I started working together. He sent me a fireplace. I was going to bring it to an engineering firm that we started working with to take a look and see how it had to be changed to meet the code. I called him and said, “We got the fireplace.” He was like, “Good.” I said, “There are no instructions.” There was silence on the other end and he goes, “What do you need to know?” We're used to a 30-page manual. They do figure it out. It's a very different style.
I'm from a construction background, too. I know how stringent building codes are. Sometimes, you have to walk away from things because it may be impossible for a manufacturer to develop a fit for that market. You're right probably on those assumptions of lack of support and sales channel. One of the takeaways that I see from that is the European business entity didn't want to explore that sales channel for whatever reason. You walking into their trade show booth and offering to take the leads off their hand were solving a problem and at the same time, finding a fit for your needs too. I like the story of you offering to make some calls and take it off their hands. That’s so fun. It is like, “Good for you. Let me call these people.”
A lot of times, you meet people and they don't want to do anything until they know how they'll get paid and where. Probably more so when you're starting your company, you have to be willing to put the effort in. You don't know where it will go. There's that natural curiosity. Who's going to pay you? How do you know? You don't. What a gift to be able to put in the time when someone gave you their lead. I saw that as I was somewhat representing them. They had to realize that I would be professional, not over-promising, and simply gathering some information. It was a nice combination because it helped us both understand the market better.
I didn't put this together until I was prepping for this conversation. I met the European Home team by walking a trade show. In May 2023, I was at the International Contemporary Furniture Fair in New York. I used to sell fire features. I saw the booth, walked in, and we started chatting. That led to you guys attending a virtual workshop. We're working together for 2024. I agree with you. That piece of being curious enough to start the conversation, you never know where it's going to lead.
I didn't think of that either. That’s right. A trade show makes sense for your interests and skills. It is a good way to meet people.
You never know where it's going to lead. That's what's interesting about the ability to build relationships and be in sales and marketing. Those skills translate in a lot of different areas. One of the questions that I want to ask you is how the sales and marketing skills that you built in high-tech lead and support you in building your business.
The first thing I remember learning from a boss was that sales can have a negative connotation. What he explained is a higher-level selling process is solution selling. It's listening. You go to sales training and workshops. You pick up little things. It is that concept that no one thinks of a salesperson as doing more listening and less talking. We always associate salespeople with a lot of talking. A higher level of sales is about listening and then seeing if your product will fit.
That helped because, in the high-tech sector, it was long-term. We were selling to IT professionals and they were making decisions about their networking software. That wasn't something that would be done very quickly. It was a lot of presenting. They'd then have to go back, work together, and see what kind of rollout would take place.
If you're willing to solve a problem, you do have something more to offer than your competitor who is going in on price and lead time. The other thing I probably learned was that if you don't ask, the answer will always be no. When you ask, “Can I have time? Would you be interested? When do you think you would place the order,” the answer might be yes. It's simply accepting that you're never going to get to a yes if you're not willing to ask.
If you're willing to solve a problem, you do have something more to offer than your competitor who is going in on price and lead time.
The more you ask, the easier it is because you start to get yeses. You almost build that confidence of, “It's not weird or awkward I'm asking.” If you don’t ask, you don’t get it.
People respect what your role is. When you’re afraid to ask for your estimate of what you’re expecting to do next year, your forecast, or the order itself, as long as you are professional about it, you're seen as simply doing your job. There’s nothing bad about that. You have a product. People want to get it when they expect it. They realize the more they can help you with your forecasting, the more when they need it it will be there. It's simply understanding what everyone's role is.
I see people have a lot of fear when it comes to selling or asking for the order and putting themselves out there. Usually, what I share is they are expecting you to ask because your role is the seller and their role is the buyer. If you structure it in solution selling, it's more of a partnership versus, “Buy this Mazda today.” It's not a car sales process. You had made a comment to me once about how it's almost like you're being a tour guide to your clients. I thought that was a beautiful way to put that.
Thanks. They don't know. That’s what I noticed when I first started European Home. I remember the excitement when an architect called. I was like, “An architect has called me.” You realize they know so much but there's a lot that they don't know. If I can be the specialist, in this case on fireplaces, I add value. I could guide them on what they can think about or some questions they could go back and look at their plans and their client, and even work with the builder.
One way we add value with the architect is to say, “Here are some things that drive the builders crazy.” One was as simple as the architects tended to simply draw a rectangle on their plans. The fireplaces usually, depending on the model, will need venting, which is going vertically or horizontally. They can't be butting up against all the other things in the wall. It’s something so simple like that. We know the architect wants to look good for their client and not have the builder complaining about them. We add value. We’re selling our expertise and they feel comfortable coming back to us. We're guiding them on some things to think about as they're specking in a fireplace.
I appreciate you saying that. My takeaway from hearing you say that is that you were adding value to their business model both from the architect's standpoint to the end user or their client. You are making them look good in front of their client and then also from the builder who, in turn, also becomes a client. You have a lot of different stakeholders in the mix. I like the analogy of the tour guide example. That's excellent.
When was in high tech before I was in Europe, we had a lot of Asian customers. I never went to Asia as a salesperson but a lot of our Asian customers would come over. I remember learning about how important it was to save face. I don't think we're taught that as part of our culture but no one should purposefully embarrass someone. It was such a thrilling thing. Maybe that was also planted.
You think of how hard everyone works. Everyone wants to look good for the customer. If you can help them at a little rough edge, smooth that out, and be like, “We've thought to,” they would be like, “That's great. That's helpful.” Part of our selling is what will help them in with the next person. We have so many people with homeowners interacting with their designers, builders, and architects. They have a fireplace store we sell through dealers. There are a lot of people to protect and make sure that they have the information that they need.
That's my whole sales background, too. It's very complex. You have a lot of different interests for all of these different entities. You can't necessarily say, “Homeowner, the architect didn't vent out the fire because that makes the architect look bad.” It's a delicate dance you have to do. I empathize with that for the team. That's why we're working nicely together.
One of the things that I'd be interested in learning from you is how you built out the sales channel. It is very impressive to have 300 dealers of your product throughout the United States and Canada. That’s where your end users are getting that support. That was probably no small feat. You have a sales team running that. You're the business owner running the day-to-day business.
From our conversations on what we know about business, you have to have your foot in all of these different ponds. I would like to learn from you how have you been structuring your time and learning imports, accounting, purchasing process, and building codes. You've had to do all these different things. I would like to know some of the ways that you tackled those big new things. I'm imagining there were things you've never done in the past.
I remember my friend, Amy. I live in Massachusetts. I moved here from New York. When I moved here in high school, I didn't always understand the words. My friend, Amy, and I were on the school bus. She asked if there were horses out in New York. I said, “What?” She said, “A horse.” I was like, “A horse.” My same friend, Amy, has an accounting degree. I said, “I don't know what to do.” She said, “You got to get set up.” She tried to explain the chart of accounts. I said, “I don't know what that is.” She said, “Do you have your chart of accounts?” I have to first figure out the lingo, then I have to figure out, “What does all this mean?”
It is amazing all the little things. I remember getting incorporated and getting an accountant. Amy helped me set up my chart of accounts. I knew nothing about inventory or barcoding. You keep asking like that. You can't do it all on your own. I'm sure I would've saved a lot of time had I been doing even more of that early on. At first, there was no money, and then there was a little money. I’d be like, “Hire someone and give that to them.” I was gradually rounding out the company and trying to get people who know a little to know more than I do. That’s very organically.
You can't do it all on your own.
I do remember even asking suppliers questions, the people who I thought were good business people. I remember them saying, “You have to remember to pay yourself. Otherwise, you will get burned out.” It is a little bit easier said than done when you're first starting because no one's going to work for free. You pay them and you're not paying yourself. You get to a point where you have to say, “I can't keep growing and then not.” You say, “What's the point of doing this?”
I remember when 2008 hit. We had dealers going out of business. There were times when I said, “I'm not sure it's worth this effort.” You take a step back and say, “If I’m paying yourself, I'd rather work for myself than work for someone else.” You make different decisions. I remember even making some cuts at that point. It was simple things like the stamp machine for $15 a month.
In terms of learning the skills, it was almost like a circle. I was like, “I got to learn accounting. I know enough to manage.” You hire someone who knows more. I already knew sales, as well as marketing. I didn't know digital but I got a book on it and then I got someone who knew it. I made a circle. I think of it almost as a pinwheel. It goes out from there. It's not linear at all.
I like that a lot. One of the things that resonated with me with what you said is asking people for support. You asked Amy and the suppliers. There's a nice bridge there between asking clients for the order. Our conversation about if you don't ask, you don't get is something that everyone can do in their roles regardless of what you do for work. You can ask other people for help. People are willing to help if there's reciprocity. I like that you use that to grow your business.
It is amazing. People are so willing to help. We often hold back on asking. I often say to people, “Feel free to pick my brain.” It's good when people take advantage of that. It is so important. You think people have so much knowledge. We can't go around reading so many books. There’s too much information out there. Sometimes, you don't know who to ask but I feel like if you start with someone, then they might help you get to someone else.
There isn't always that perfect mentor who's going to be all packaged and provide everything you want. It is important to know where you're stuck or not sure. I remember going to the accountant, going over numbers, and saying, “We're doing so much work.” It was as simple as, “It looks like you have to raise your prices.” Sometimes, it’s so simple but it helps, at least for me, to hear it from someone more experienced in a certain area.
I have two things I want to hit on from what you said there. The first is when we feel resistance to asking for help. If somebody's offering you help, it's almost like you're holding them accountable for what they say they're going to do. I've noticed, and tell me if you agree, that when I offer to help people for free and then they don't take advantage of it, it's like, “That's fine. It’s your choice.” If somebody's taking the time to offer, I feel pretty comfortable accepting it. I make a joke. I'll say, “Be careful what you offer because I will take advantage of it. I will take you up on it.”
That's a great way to say it. Sometimes, maybe you're at the age where you don't quite understand it or you think you know. You have to get to a point where you realize what you don't know. Maybe that takes some maturity as well.
It also takes being vulnerable in asking for help because it can feel vulnerable.
You almost feel embarrassed.
I also liked what you talked about when you mentioned you get stuck. I want to talk a little bit about how in business if you or a teammate find themselves tackling a big problem. Building codes and navigating building codes is not an easy nut to crack. That's one small sliver of the examples we've talked about. I’m curious to learn from you what tools you use when you feel stuck or you're tackling a large problem.
I love going back to the FranklinCovey advice and training. A long time ago, I took a two-day class. What resonated was the way they said, “How did Ben Franklin start a hospital, start a newspaper, become a political figure, and start a library too?” They said how in his daily notebook, he would have a big idea and then break it down into tasks. I liked that because I could understand it. It was so nuts and bolts. I thought, “What an amazing example too, Ben Franklin.”
What I found so helpful is the idea of, “We need a new website or anything. We want a new product.” We use a project management tool. It's great because we put our big ideas, brainstorm, and put all the tasks together. They're always going to forget some things but we can go back and add them. We then break it up about who is doing which part of it. I use that concept even when I'm stuck. I have my projects and I'm not giving them to someone else. It’s my area of responsibility. Sometimes, I find there are other little distractions. I’m like, “Let me take care of this and that.” I then have to say, “You need to work on this.”
It's important to get beautiful installation pictures. It takes a lot of time because you have to get in touch with the customers and understand it. For example, the background picture of my Zoom is a picture of an installation in California around Mill Valley. It's a Joseph Eichler house. At the time, I didn't even know who Joseph Eichler was but the architect told me all about him. I looked him up. He loved Frank Lloyd Wright. He was a builder. It helps us with our storytelling.
A part of my job is to make sure that we're getting these beautiful pictures and understanding them. It takes time to do and there's always something else. I write down the steps, reach out, and follow up. By breaking it down and doing something even if it's 10 minutes or 15 minutes in a day, I have that sense that I pushed it forward. It makes a difference. When I don't feel like doing it and 2 or 3 weeks go by, I see such a difference in the quality of my work. Simply breaking it down and pushing it forward, even in tiny incremental amounts has made a huge difference.
That's excellent feedback or advice because it can be overwhelming. I don't know about you but when I push things off, I end up getting this pit of anxiety in my stomach. It makes it harder to finally tackle it. When you do, it usually ends up not being that big of a deal. You kick yourself like, “Why did I wait so long?” I don't want to speak for the audience here but I'm imagining we probably all are guilty of that. I like the feedback of the ten minutes a day. It at least pushes the ball forward.
You're right. When you don't do it, it's not just letting 2 or 3 weeks go by. It's the stress and anxiety that go along with that. You're frustrated with yourself. It’s probably human nature that when we don't feel 100% comfortable, it's easier to say, “Tomorrow.” I've heard writers do this. They might be struggling but if they can move their pen, even the letter A over and over, there's something about making it more fluid. It greases the wheels. That's what I found. If I say 10 minutes, it often will turn into 20 or 30. You sometimes even get into that flow feeling. That is what you have to push through when you don't feel like doing something. Do a little bit.
I like that a lot. Keep greasing the pen. It's the same with exercise, too. Put on your sneakers, get outside, and see what happens.
For a walk, you don't feel like it but when you get out, you come back so happy that you did it.
Ten minutes a day or breaking down the big tasks into smaller tasks and chunking them down. Are there any other tools you have to share with us in terms of if you're finding yourself stuck or not wanting to do something?
I've noticed sometimes with people here in the office that something goes on and gets forgotten about. I call it phone-a-friend. I will ask someone. I'll say, “I'm not getting to this. Would you mind hanging out with me while I write this email?” Maybe it's a difficult email or something and you need to feel that support from someone. I’m amazed at how much it helps me. I'll do that with people here and they always seem pretty happy.
It doesn't happen a lot but you can always tell when someone doesn't want to deal with something. I say, “Do you want to do phone-a-friend?” They’re like, “Yeah. Maybe that will help.” It does seem to help. I don't know how scalable it is. A big company might not love that idea but everyone runs into those things that they don't feel like doing. You feel supported. Maybe there's something about human nature to feel connected and you’re not alone with something you hate to do. Even if you're working remotely, you put the person on speaker and you’re like, “I'm typing it,” and then you read it back to them and brainstorm. I do find I can knock something off my list that way.
You phone a friend like in Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. You’re tapping in for the million-dollar question. I love it. It serves as an external accountability in some ways. In our roles as outside sales or entrepreneurs, you have to be a self-starter to be efficient. I love the phone-a-friend idea. That's powerful. For the audience, I almost want to start offering that to people too like, “Do you want to get on Zoom for 30 minutes and quietly work with each other?”
I wonder. Maybe that's why co-working places are popular.
I've been going to one and it has been nice. It's nice to collaborate. I was sitting next to a gentleman and he was a coder. I looked at him and said, “Do you understand Squarespace?” That's my website platform. He didn't but if he knew it, I was going to say, “How do I change this in Squarespace?” You never know unless you ask. I appreciate that this has come up a couple of times in our conversation.
That's right. You don't know. Sometimes, even that little connection maybe by talking it through helps you get over a hump.
We're talking about asking for help, asking for the order, and phoning a friend when you get stuck and you don't want to do something. What different versions of phone-a-friend could look like for you? I like the break it down and keep the pen moving. Do you have any other final things you'd want to share with us before we start talking about where they can find European Home?
When people get stuck, don't stop. You may stop for a little bit and take a breath. Maybe have the courage to say, “I don't know the answer but I can do a little something.” You'll be so happy that you moved it along a little bit. You're so much more likely to get to where you want to go than if you feel stuck and say, “I don't know what to do.”
Most people don't know what to do when it's new for them. We're pretty smart people. We have decision-making capabilities. We're like a flow chart. We’re like, “If I do this, this will happen. If I do that, that will happen. Which one am I over here?” Your brain goes through all those processes. You can usually get halfway there pretty easily. We're always so focused on the result and that’s where we get stuck. By moving it along, all of a sudden, you're halfway there. By getting there, it makes the end clearer.
That is such a powerful takeaway. People get stuck in figuring out, “How am I going to do this big task instead of taking the steps to get to the halfway point?” Thank you for sharing that. That is a good takeaway.
You're welcome.
Holly, I’m happy that we met one another. I like that it happened in the organic way that it happened.
I feel the same way here.
That's something that has been joyful about my experience and work in general. My final question is what is the most rewarding part of your job?
It's independent to some level. You're still accountable to all your customers and employees. Probably the number one reason people tend to start their businesses is to be able to make decisions quickly and it doesn't feel bureaucratic. I have gotten a lot out of being part of a team at my company. Also, everyone here, if they have an idea, they're encouraged to go for it.
Probably a big reason for wanting to be independent with my business is the feeling that I want to do it. You don't want to always have to discuss the pros and cons of things. Sometimes, it's fairly obvious. It's feeling a little bit of freedom and independence. It is maybe being accountable to customers and running a good business. For decision-making and making things better, we do it and try to make the company as smooth and seamless as possible. That's been very rewarding.
You should be very proud of what you've built. The product and sales channel are beautiful. I love knowing more about the origin story behind it. If people want to learn more about European Home, where can they find out more about the product and the company?
2024 is going to be a great year.
Our website is EuropeanHome.com. We have lots of information there. We have some customer stories. We have the products that we make ourselves, as well as the products that we import. We have a couple of lines we import from Europe. You can see the employees as well. The website is the place to go, which is EuropeanHome.com.
I am so happy that we were able to spend time together and that we made this happen. It is so fun to look back and connect the dots on how things manifest. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing your expertise.
Thank you for having me, Sara. We appreciate all the training and advice we're getting from you as well. Thank you very much.
2024 is going to be a great year. I'm looking forward to it. That was Holly Markham with European Home. Thank you for reading the show. We'll see you next time.
